Lee Short ([info]losrpg) wrote,
@ 2005-12-18 09:30:00
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The Lumpley Principle, Take 2
In this thread on Matt Snyder's blog, there is a discussion on "GM Fiat", and player authority in the game. This post will reply to some of the points there, regarding "GM Fiat" and who actually has authority in the game.

Theory wonks, read on.


Let's start with the Lumpley Principle, that "System (including but not limited to 'the rules') is defined as the means by which the group agrees to imagined events during play." A key part of this is that System is the means used during play, not the means stated in the rulebook (if there is one). Following the dictum that "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy", no set of rules survives contact with the play group. This means that the actual System is informally negotiated amongst the game's players, no matter what the game text says. The best that the game author can hope for is to set the terms of that negotiation and influence its course. This can be a powerful influence, but the players at the table have the final word.

Practically, what this means is that the social dynamics of the play group trump the written game text. D20 is often touted as an example of a game that is driven by GM fiat. Yet I've seen D20 games where the titular GM had authority over virtually nothing to do with interpretations of the mechanics, and these issues were negotiated among the other players at the table with no input from the GM. True to form, after the players had made their decision, the GM rubber-stamped it. But the real power was with the players. Dogs in the Vineyard is often touted as an example of a game that has strong rules to assure that each player gets authorial input. Yet I know of a Dogs session where one of the players had virtually no input at all, because of the social dynamics of the gaming group. 'The rules' said that this player had the right to frame their own conflicts...but some of the other players bulldozed through that shit.

No rules text in the world can stop bullies from being bullies, and no rules text in the world can stop timid players from being timid. Overcoming the players' Beliefs, Instincts, and Traits is easier said than done.

The first implication of all this is that "GM Fiat" is no such thing, unless that's the agreement that the players negotiate. Even then, the GM power to decree may be absolute in theory, but it never is in practice --- the players always have more power than this. Typically, much more power...though in the presence of bullies, all bets are off.

"GM fiat" theoretically represents a System where the gamemaster has unlimited power, but actually represents a myriad of underlying Systems. Attempting to analyze play of such Systems according to the theoretical System rather than the actual System cannot hope to have any degree of accuracy. Any analysis of such systems must account for all of the actual Systems represented. Yet there is continual synecdoche on this issue, mistaking certain dysfunctional forms of these Systems as representative of the whole. “GM fiat” systems often give their players little help in creating a functional System, but that does not mean that they can be pigeonholed as they so often are.

I propose a thought experiment. Imagine you are in a “GM fiat” game entering its fifth session. At the beginning of the session, the gamemaster says “Oops, sorry, guys. I just rolled a Force 5 Hurricane on the weather chart and you all die. Let’s roll up some new characters. I think you should all be elves this time.” If the players are truly powerless in the game and the GM is all-powerful, then you all must take the abuse and roll up new characters. But the fact is, you’ll probably leave the game, or convince the GM to give way. Your ability to walk from the game gives you power, and you don’t have to sit there and take this abuse.

It’s the players’ ability to walk from the game that gives them power in any game. Imagine a game of Primetime Adventures where all the players show up and then the Director turns up the Metallica to 120 decibels and yells into their ears “I’ve decided that our game tonight will be a TV series about giant furry Martian spiders…study this map.” The only thing that gives the players power to deal with this high-handed behavior is their ability to walk from the game. In fact, no one at the table has any power that doesn’t have its basis in their ability to walk from the game. "GM fiat" is a myth: it is simply the gamemaster exercising his prerogative to walk away from the gaming table if what happens there doesn't suit him --- a power which all of the players have. It is not a power unique to the gamemaster.

Now, what can be said about some of the “GM fiat” games is that the game text discourages the players from using this power. This in no way changes the fact that the players actually have that power. To believe so is to vastly overestimate the power of the game text. The ADRPG text practically screams at the players, telling them not to use this power and to let the GM walk all over them. This is just one of the reasons it is widely scoffed at by many of the actual players.

The implication for game design is that the game text is limited in its ability to combat dysfunction (for several reasons, only two of which will I mention here). In brief, its power is limited to specifying some aspects of a baseline System. In cannot specify the actual System to be used by the players, it can only be a baseline System from which the players will create their own System. Secondly, any actual System consists of a very large number of actual rules. Any game text must choose to focus on a small subset of these rules, yet all of them are important. For instance, Dogs in the Vineyard does not contain any text that states "don't shout down the other players." Nor should it; that's not a good use of the limited game text. Given the finite nature of the game text, the play group will be left on its own to fill in a large number of informal rules. Sometimes the rules they build will include "don't shout down the other players," sometimes they will include "shouting down the other players is acceptable." These rules don't even have to be created until they come into play (and they typically aren't).



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Not so fast! :)
[info]ricmadeira
2005-12-18 10:56 pm UTC (link)
What you're saying is that no GM holds truly unlimited power over a social game like an RPG because the players are always allowed to leave the game (as a group, at the same time) that then ceases to exist? What's new about that? I doubt anybody's definition of all-powerful GMs, or GM Fiat, includes the power of making the players sit at the table and continue to game until the GM lets them stop... For example, go read John Kim's recent rant about Authority and Authorship at his livejournal for an entirely different take on GM Fiat than what I think you think is the norm. ;)

Anyway:

Imagine a game of Primetime Adventures where all the players show up and then the Director turns up the Metallica to 120 decibels and yells into their ears “I’ve decided that our game tonight will be a TV series about giant furry Martian spiders…study this map.”

You need to go back and read your PTA again. You can say whatever else you want about this situation, but that GM is clearly not playing PTA. If the players take him up on it, they will be not playing PTA either; they'll play something, alright, just not PTA. It's very simply: either you follow the rules and you play PTA, or you don't follow the rules and you don't play PTA. Couldn't be more clear than that. The rules of PTA don't allow for any deviation; all people must follow all the rules all the time.

The implication for game design is that the game text is limited in its ability to combat dysfunction (for several reasons, only two of which will I mention here). In brief, its power is limited to specifying some aspects of a baseline System.

Sure, the games rules can't do everything for you. But the disrupting examples you mention - shouting down, extremely loud music, bullying of all things! - are clearly part of the social contract and outside the scope of the rules of any game. They can ruin your experience as a player in an RPG game just as easily as they can ruin your fun in any social gathering. Since all RPGs assume and require that you have a social contract that says "everybody is here to have fun" (most indie games even go so far as stating it as clearly as "everybody is here to work together to have fun"), when a normal group accepts that kind of things, you're clearly playing the game outside the scope it was created for... and in that case, all bets are off (and in most cases you're not playing the game as the author specifically said you should).

Nobody, ever, tried to argue that the social aspect does not take precedence over the roleplaying aspect. So you can't stop dysfunctional play, right, but you can damn well try to make sure those anti-social psycho players out-there :) are not playing the game as you wrote it, just something they came up with on their own that they think is the game you wrote... exactly like the fictional PTA Producer you created, or the DitV group that you "know" of that bullied one of its players into clamming up and just following the lead.

The thing with these new indie RPGs is that you have to be very unlucky to play them dysfunctionaly or in ways the authors didn't intend them to be played (in which case, the gaming text/rules are probably flawed). When you go to a game of PTA (or DitV), you can clearly know what to expect even if you don't know the other people at the people... that is, if they're really playing PTA not just something that might look like PTA from six miles away. Compare this to your average White Wolf game, where the Story-First rhetoric can apply to anything ranging from hardcore anything-goes-and-eye-gouging-too competitive powergaming, to incredibly uptight Railroading, to full power-to-the-player freeform... everything under the sun is covered, thanks to the Golden Rule and a gaming text/system that tries to be everything at once.

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Re: Not so fast! :)
[info]losrpg
2005-12-19 11:13 pm UTC (link)
My other comment below was also a reply to this post (comment too long, so I had to split it up).

Compare this to your average White Wolf game, where the Story-First rhetoric can apply to anything ranging from hardcore anything-goes-and-eye-gouging-too competitive powergaming, to incredibly uptight Railroading, to full power-to-the-player freeform... everything under the sun is covered, thanks to the Golden Rule and a gaming text/system that tries to be everything at once.

This is exactly my problem with the term "GM Fiat." People use it as if there were a single System that it refers to, when there isn't. For example, if people understood the term as you have described it above, then it would have been apparent to anyone paying attention that the claim "GM fiat allows no player input" was based on a strawman...yet the thread in question makes it quite apparent that there was no such recognition.

Does that make sense, and explain why I dislike the term?

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Re: Not so fast! :)
[info]losrpg
2005-12-19 11:11 pm UTC (link)
What you're saying is that no GM holds truly unlimited power over a social game like an RPG because the players are always allowed to leave the game (as a group, at the same time) that then ceases to exist?

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that each individual player, by the threat of that single player leaving the game, has power in the game.

About 15 years ago, a GM believed a little too literally in the GM-is-god advice section of some RPG. I walked out of the game, and the GM was quite stunned and really very sorry that he had attempted to be so autocratic. If I had cared to fix my issues with that game, I am quite certain I could have negotiated with the GM from a favorable position of power.

That's the kind of power I'm talking about. How much of that power each player has corresponds to how much the GM values said player's participation.

You can say whatever else you want about this situation, but that GM is clearly not playing PTA.

By this standard, no has ever played PTA and no one ever will.

Here's why:

The rules of PTA specify that the players as a group decide what the series is (IIRC). Now, "the players decide as a group" cannot help but be code for "social contract goes here" -- because the players will obviously be using their existing social dynamics for group decision making. If playing proper PTA requires completely discarding those dynamics and starting tabula rasa, then us imperfect humans are incapable of aspiring to play PTA. Otherwise, whatever the social dynamics of the play group are, are part of PTA...and the existing social dynamics may well include things like bullying, wheedling, coquettry, etc. So either these behaviors are part of PTA, or no such frail and emotional creatures as humans can ever aspire to play a game of PTA.

In short, these social contract issues are embedded in PTA and every other game. It is impossible to write a game that does not have them embedded.

The thing with these new indie RPGs is that you have to be very unlucky to play them dysfunctionaly or in ways the authors didn't intend them to be played

First, I will not that my experience is that it's dysfunctional play is rather more common than you indicate here. But that's just my experience.

But the second part is something I think I disagree with more substantially. I think that most of the game designers have a social contract in mind when they wrote the game text. Let's look at some real text from Dogs in the Vineyard, on framing conflicts:


Establish what's at stake. Any player can make suggestions, and everybody should beel free to toss it around until you arrive at the right thing


Now, I don't think that Vincent intended for "toss it around until you arrive at the right thing" to be shorthand for "player A wheedles, cajoles, and filibusters the rest of the player group until he gets what he wants." But that behavior is very clearly one form of "tossing it around until you arrive at the right thing."

This has come really strongly to me in playtest my own game in development, Star, Moon, and Cross. SMC has the strongest rules that I am aware of for equalizing input by the each of the players (not only does each player frame their own PC's scenes, but the rules enforce that each player frames the same number of scenes; GM duties rotate around the table). But playtesting it has proved to me that even if with that intent, there will be differential input. The timid players are still timid and end up with less input, and the dominant players are still dominant and have more input. SMC may be able to mitigate this effect, but that is the limit of its power.

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Re: Not so fast! :)
[info]ewilen
2005-12-20 12:43 am UTC (link)
Hi, Lee. After having some difficulty with your initial post, I agree completely with the points & clarifications you're making in your comments. It's important not to confuse these points with the claim that came up on Matt's blog, which can basically be summarized as "The Golden Rule always applies, or Fudging is Always an Option". While true in a way, it's basically a bottomless pit.

I'd note, though, that there is a class of games which don't rely on social contract at all, once you get beyond the minimal social requirement that everyone agrees to play by the rules. But while I've seen board and card games which fit in this class, I haven't seen an RPG that does. Maybe some LARPS do, if you take the overall situation-framing of the LARP as a given.

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To be or not to be
[info]ricmadeira
2005-12-24 05:08 pm UTC (link)
By this standard, no has ever played PTA and no one ever will.

Look, man, it's pretty simple. You are one goddamn sentence into this supposed PTA session and you've already broken at least 3 main rules of PTA; if you're playing something, it's clearly not Matt Wilson's game. Like I said:

Go. Read. Your. PTA. Again.

Have you ever at least read the game or are you pulling arguments out of thin air? If you want you theories to be given value, you could at least ground them in actual play reports... not hypothetical examples that can be made to fit everything under the sun.

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Re: To be or not to be
[info]losrpg
2005-12-30 02:35 am UTC (link)
Now we're getting into something that's a whole different issue.

You may be right that I need to re-read PTA; it has been a while since I read it, and I don't own a copy. But I have read the rules, and played the game. And there was nothing in the rules as I have internalized them (through both my play experience and my memory of the text) to contradict that play example. Here's the kicker: when I recently played the game, it was with an experienced Director and with players who largely had not played before. When the Director explained the rules, he did not mention any rules that would contradict my play example.

Now I can't say if this is a case of me simply interpreting those "three main rules" differently than you did, or if I simply placed less significance on those rules. Significantly, the experienced Director that I played with also either interpreted the rules differently than you did, or didn't think they were important enough to explain.

Your interpretation of the rules is clearly quite different than mine. It is also based on a more recent (and probably more thorough) reading of the rules. Does that make my interpretation wrong?

This is a very sticky wicket. On the one hand, if we disallow the possibility of an incorrect interpretation, we're left with "anything goes." On the other hand, if we allow the possibility of an incorrect interpretation, then what is the standard by which we judge an interpretation to be incorrect? My knowledge of modern philosophy is not what it once was -- but I am unaware of any modern philosophers who hold that the latter question has a solution.

But let's revisit that "anything goes" for just a second. 'Cause it's not quite true that anything goes. It's not PTA if you are rolling to hit on d20 plus base attack bonus plus... To qualify as a legitimate interpretation of the PTA text, it must be based on an actual reading of the text of PTA and not be based on a reading of the text of D&D 3.5 with the words 'PTA' painted on the cover.

-----------------

So I may need to re-read PTA. I'm actually pretty sure that the version I read is not the current version. But I'm also pretty sure that the issue isn't as simple as you're painting it.

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Re: To be or not to be
[info]ricmadeira
2005-12-30 11:18 am UTC (link)
For the record, here are the 3 problems with your example that come immediately to mind. I'll exemplify them with quotes from the first edition and the second edition (printed book, not the PDF). If you really read the game, leave your old-school gaming baggage at home to try and grasp what the author is trying to hammer into your -jaded brain, I don't see any room for different interpretations. These are not mere guidelines, these are mere gaming advice; they are an integral part of the system (thank God for Lumpley, or we would only be paying attention to hard fast rules) if not rules themselves.


A) The general tone of the Game Play... it's cooperative!

1st Ed (page 6), 2nd Ed (page 1) - PTA is a game where the participants create and play out a weekly TV show. [This is the first goddamn sentence in the book! Is there any real excuse for not seeing, ignoring or mis-interpreting it?] (...) "The adventures you can have with PTA will be influenced by the kind of show you and the other players create.

1st Ed (back-cover) - "Everything in play in play - from setting to sets to supporting characters - exists because the group made it together."

2nd Ed (back-cover) - "You and the other players will create the show and its cast, then play out actual episodes."


It's not only in the rules, it's on the frigging back cover, man! Could a game author be more cristal clear than this?



B) The particulars of Series Creation... it's done by the group!

1st Ed (page 13), 2nd Ed (page 13), Creating a Series - "No matter who you thinks of it, all the players should sit down and talk about what kind of game they want it to be, and hash out a few things. This is not a game where one person says, "I'm going to do XYZ, and you can be a part of it on my terms." The show is create by the group.

BTW, this is just three sentences in a whole page detailing how the group goes about brainstorming the series concept together... and then it goes at it again on page 15, when it talks about deciding the premise for the series. Mis-interpret that!


C) The choosing of the producer... it's done by the group!

1st Ed (page 14), 2nd Ed (page 14), The Producer - "Determine first who in your group will be the Producer of the show."

The game text then goes on for pages and a half explaining how the Producer is not in control of the game, how he is there to "incorporate the wishes of the players", how his influence is "in the form of subtle nudges and pushes", etc. Another hint that his role is not all-encompassing is that he's not called Director, like you say; he's called Producer, okay?




Bottom line: no game author can create a game that's idiot- or jerk- proof. By trying, he's just adding dozens of pages with "can't"s, "shouldn't"s, and "wont"s that will a) severely hamper the game/participants, b) will only be more cannon fodder for the rules-lawyer jerks, c) will scare away some of his target audience, d) all of the above and plus some other things too.

No self-respecting game can be played with people who deliberately don't follow the rules and guidelines. For the game to occur, everybody has to be in agreement that they're all there to play this game, by these rules, and have fun together. All social contracts that don't have that are worthless and so are not even taken into account by most people at the Forge... at least that's my perception of it. If you need a metaphor, it's like studying/helping out people trying to play soccer that are using a baseball field and have baseball bats in their hands; it's not only not good for anything, it's completely pointless! After these people finally take that essential step of leaving their bats at home and getting themselves a field with goalposts and a decent sized ball, then you can bother with them and apply Big Model / GNS theory to them... but before that, Forge theory does not - and need not - apply.

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Re: To be or not to be
[info]losrpg
2005-12-30 06:26 pm UTC (link)
That text is exactly the kind of stuff I've been citing in support of my point. So I think our difference is in how we think that text gets implemented into the LP System. I think that our differences are found in what we believe about human behavior rather than in our interpretations of the rules.

See, I fully support text like "No matter who you thinks of it, all the players should sit down and talk about what kind of game they want it to be, and hash out a few things. This is not a game where one person says, "I'm going to do XYZ, and you can be a part of it on my terms." The show is created by the group." I think it's both important and big step forward. But I don't think that it's really anything other than how-to-game advice, because the actual LP System rules are always generated by the game group from the game text. I also don't think you can say "you're not playing PTA" to a group that doesn't take that advice to heart in a real way. Because, you see, many groups will implement a superficial version that greatly changes the appearance of who has the power and maybe changes by a very little bit who has the actual power...and they'll honestly think that they have done what the game asked them to. What's more important, I think that every group who has ever played PTA and honestly tried to implement that advice, will do the same thing to some degree. No one will ever achieve the egalitarian ideal (but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't espouse it).

--------------

Another possible difference between us is that I may give more credit to the powers of human self-delusion and denial. Remember that DitV game I talked about where players A & B stonewalled the game to keep player C from getting a scene? Well, players A and B honestly deny that they did any such thing. IME it's very common for such players to simply not perceive what they are doing, or not admit it to themselves. IME deliberately not following the guidelines is a non-issue...and, yes, I think people can be sufficiently self-delusional so that they think my original PTA example qualifies as "all the players sit down and talk about what kind of game they want it to be, and hash out a few things."

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Re: Not so fast! :)
[info]cpxbrex
2006-05-16 05:05 pm UTC (link)
I have some anecdotal evidence, here.

I've recently just had to stop playing Universalis. I really like the game in a lot of ways -- ideally, I like the shared power, and for conflict resolution I basically just liked everything.

But in actual play this problem always develops. I become the effective GM. I've talked it over with my players and the reasons are interesting. Despite what the rules say there are just some truths, here.

1. I have the greatest GMing experience. I've always been pretty flexible as a GM, taking serious input from players and riffing off them when they want to be pro-active, so I have a lot of improv experience in figuring things out on the spot.

2. It is natural for them to defer to my opinions. Because in the past I have been GM to all of the players, and I'm the most frequent GM in our group by an order of magnitude, it is normal for them to, y'know, basically go as I go. They trust me to make their games interesting and fun. (This was actually what stopped me from playing Universalis -- if I'm going to do all the work, I might as well play a game where the players can fill the actor stance more naturally. Read: traditional RPGs.)

So, even in a game where, by the rules and very explicitly, power was shared, because of prior, well, training things tended to become as they were in any other game -- the players, used to being players, acted like players and thus became players. I, as GM, used to acting like a GM became the GM.

It was a pretty interesting experience for me, if a little frustrating, hehe.

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[info]the_never
2006-05-16 04:08 pm UTC (link)
You nailed it. I had to follow this one back from John Kim.

I know this is an old thread but I think you point out something I have thought exactly: Either the Lumpley Principle holds true, or "all traditional gaming defaults to GM fiat". You simply can't have both. This came up in that Lumpley blog about whether one player could make decision about what other players do or are. He states "we already do this because of the extension of the Lumpley principle." And he specifically cites the idea of a player disagreeing with a GM in order to veto or alter something.

The best GMs always work for consensus and consent. This was common knowledge as long ago as the 1st Edition DMG, and you can read Greg Gorden'snotes about a players right to "pull the plug" on a GM-initiated subplot (and even to initiate his own) as far back as the first edition the DC RPG.

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